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Students and employees of Rochester College from all perspectives are welcome to comment, and anyone can make a new topic. This blog endeavors to give students the opportunity to voice their opinions (even if they are unpopular on the RC campus), so feel free to post anonymously if you wish. To have your topic posted here, send it to rochesters7uden7@yahoo.com to be reviewed and then published. If accepted, a poster's work will NOT be edited.
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posted by an analytical college student | 10:17 AM
36 Comments:
Tacitus is spreading the word here.
I read Tacitus' post at the website linked to in the first comment. My question is this, if Rochester College is such a horrible place, leading our youth astray, and employing men of questionable character, why stay? I like the thoughts on the Emerging Church, because it seems important to talk about (maybe we should talk about here). But, beyond that, I hear talk of truth (divorced from Christ). In all honesty, beyond Tacitus, I find very few arguments that make logical sense. Still, what is the purpose of staying at RC? To be subversive? To be a phantom menance? Or, is your mind made up about everything that will be talked about already? I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't quite understand the logic. If RC is so bad, there's no reason to remain here. Most, if not all credits, will transfer to any other Church of Christ school that will be more to your liking. Again, why stay?
Maybe Tacitus wants to be an element of change. Everything I have seen has been done in the spirit of honesty and truth. There is a progressive element that is threatening to destroy the traditions of Rochester College on several fronts, and many of us are trying to put a stop to it. Soon, it may be too late.
At a recent House of God, Minister Patrick Mead commented that the reason his church (Rochester Church of Christ) has become more "progressive" compared to other Churches of Christ, is that their study of Scripture had changed them, not the other way around. Now, I am not Church of Christ, but it seems to me that the changes being made come from study of Scripture, rather than an attempt to go with the flow and be "hip." I'd like to know exactly what traditions are being attacked by RC, because as a Biblical Studies major, I have learned a lot of Church of Christ theology (whether I agree with it or not). But, what traditions do you speak of? Are these traditions to be followed at the expense of allowing Scripture to change you?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Great questions I too am awaiting an answer! Please what traditions is RC getting away from maybe we all can be elements of change if you help us understand what you mean when you say... "destroy the traditions of Rochester College on several fronts.."
What are the traditions and what fronts do you speak of?
"My question is this, if Rochester College is such a horrible place, leading our youth astray, and employing men of questionable character, why stay?"
First of all, I do not believe RC is a "horrible place." I do not oppose the majority of the RC faculty and administration, much less all of them. I understand that certain comments of mine might have given you that impression, but when I refer to certain members of the administration as the "Rochester College Administration," I do so because the members in question are not part of any distinct or unique group that I can distinguish from the rest of the admin./faculty. I oppose only the actions of certain members, not the entire body.
Second, I simply do not accept the "love it or leave it" argument -- it is inherently flawed. Instead, my attitude is "love it or change it," especially when there is already such a large group of students who are disenchanted with the direction RC is going, as well. I believe most of the students at RC are not trying to push a progressive agenda down the other students' throats. I believe the same of the faculty.
Calvin, I do not want to be a "phantom menace" (I prefer Attacking the Clones anyway). As for my particular reasons for staying at RC, I'll be frank with you. I have both secular and spiritual reasons for staying: I am happy with the range of scholarships I have here. My parents do not pay any of the tuition, so I can simply not afford to pay for the thousands and thousands of dollars in tuition that some other schools would charge me. Second, I like small class sizes. I have had good relations with all the professors here and I respect the vast majority of them greatly.
As for your point on a transfer to other Church of Christ schools, I am not a member of the Church of Christ either (nor have I ever been).
"Or, is your mind made up about everything that will be talked about already?"
Absolutely not. On the contrary, I came into this college without any pretensions whatsoever. I am not naturally an aggressive person - I prefer to write and observe instead of getting in people's faces and being the center of attention.
"If RC is so bad, there's no reason to remain here. Most, if not all credits, will transfer to any other Church of Christ school that will be more to your liking. Again, why stay?"
Let's pause and think about this point for a second. Why should I leave (or any of the other writers/supporters, for that matter) because I have a dissenting opinion that I can back up factually? There has been disagreement with current events on campus on a large scale.
Tacitus,
I cannot rightly say your decision to stay is difficult. I understand compeltely the tension you must live between staying and keeping your scholarships and going and having to burden yourself and family members with the cost of a college education in today's world. However, I do see a problem with accepting funds from an educational institution and then turning and stirring up controversy and posting on sites that attack people. I have no problem with disagreement or being a dissenting voice. I am a dissenting voice in regards to race relations on a predominantly white campus and I have near a full ride. It feels like a losing battle. I have gone in and spoke with Dean Cain and JC Thomas and Melanie Cramp and Terrill Hall about several things I don't like here at RC and left frustrated. But, there was never any retaliatory strike against me. I have not been censored and not allowed to speak to the student body. I was still allowed to produce the House of God Sessions, despite fearful attitudes regarding it. But, I do it all openly. The problem I see Biblically is that you have deliberately sought out the support of those who are "concerned" about RC and called them to pull funding--your funding--from the school.
I spoke with Rubel Shelly about the website you've been posting on. He was deeply saddened and willing to sit and talk with anyone who might have a problem with him. But, your anonymity "protects" your scholarship and corrupts the Biblical mandate to lovingly go to one's brother or sister face-to-face (or through a direct mailing like the Apostle Paul) if you have a problem with them personally or need to correct or rebuke wrong thinking.
So, I would say the scope of your approach is not just divisive and mean-spirited, but it is SINFUL. Not on the issues of race. I enjoyed engaging you on those matters. It challenged me and made grow. But, now it has been taken to a level that is ungodly when you cast your lot with those willing to villify a man's character behind his back. (In actuality, as Rubel puts it, this kind of tactic ends up winning him MORE friends.)
I would still like to know what it is about RC you would like to change? The Emergent Faith series? It's over. They didn't condemn or condone it. They left it to us to make a decision as to whether they like it or not. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the writings of Bell or McLaren, but I've read almost all of their stuff and find MUCH that I disagree with. Bu,t I also find A TON that I do agree with. Is it Rubel Shelly? Man, sometimes I can't stand the guy. He's rude. Cuts people off when they'retalking and talks about himself way too much. He has said some things that I think are CLEARLY un-Biblical. I've told him that to his face and we've dialogued about those things. But, I spoke with him to his face. I don't speak ill of him behind his back. (I poke fun of his mannerisms like every other student, but I will not attack his character.) Is it the issue of the plagiarism from last year? I'm meeting with JC and Claude to talk about a possible apology during this year's BHM, because I think its impoortant to you. The faculty is reading a book and discussing race relations on campus because people went and talked to them. So, I ask again, what "direction" is RC heading in that has you so up in arms that you are willing to tell others to steer clear of a place you will not leave because of a financial kickback?
Calvin,
While your response still has the characteristic unfailing poise that you have shown in other posts, it seems to lack grace and fairness.
I did not want to get involved in this discussion, but the degree of misrepresentation has left me no choice.
First of all he (Tacitus) was very clear that he was not against the College, a point that seems to have been lost on you Calvin. You say that he shouldn't be anonymous because of the "Christian environment", yet you act as if he is not welcome at the college and should leave merely because he disagrees with a few members of the administration? Looks like no one can win with you Calvin.
Second, you say:
"The problem I see Biblically is that you have deliberately sought out the support of those who are "concerned" about RC and called them to pull funding--your funding--from the school."
If this is the problem you see biblically then Tacitus is on pretty solid ground because as I have read, Tacitus has never called those on concernedmembers.com to pull funding from the school. This claim is patently untrue, and I encourage anyone reading to follow the hyperlink in the posts and investigate this fictitious claim for themselves.
Third, I cannot help but note the irony when you trumpet (even with CAPS) Tacitus' "SIN" of not approaching Shelly privately first when he had a problem with what he said, to jump to the conclusion that Tacitus' post was made with the motivations you claim he had is very presumputous indeed, unlike you I will not presume the worst. Instead, I will leave that to Tacitus to validate or invalidate. But don't you think Calvin, that it would have been more beneficial to everyone had you been consistent with your own criticism and asked Tacitus to speak privately before trumpeting your presumptions in the same way you critisized him of doing? I believe Matthew 7:4-5 addresses this situation directly.
Fourth, you have also made another opportunistic and faulty attack on the posters here because of their anonymity, by saying "But, your anonymity "protects" your scholarship and corrupts the Biblical mandate to lovingly go to one's brother or sister face-to-face (or through a direct mailing like the Apostle Paul)"
Now I beg your pardon, but this is nonsense. How would anonymity "corrupt" anyone's ability to send an email from an anonymous account?
Fifth, You conclude by asking "So, I ask again, what "direction" is RC heading in that has you so up in arms that you are willing to tell others to steer clear of a place you will not leave because of a financial kickback?"
This is a trick question. Tacitus has not told anyone to "steer clear" of Rochester College, this is just another wild tale. Tacitus has said nothing of the sort. If he had in fact said something to that effect, I have no doubt you would have quoted him as I have done you and you have quoted others before.
Now, I repeat Tacitus has made it clear that he is not against the college in any way, and your refusal to aknowledge this simple point makes me wonder whether you are being genuine or if you are just out for blood.
First, thank you for your attention to the BHM plagiarism issue. Maintaining an atmosphere of accuracy and integrity is vital to the college's witness, in my opinion.
Calvin, you said:
"However, I do see a problem with accepting funds from an educational institution and then turning and stirring up controversy and posting on sites that attack people."
Now that I have had the time to read more of the Madison Concerned Members' Board, I will come out and say what I have been thinking for quite some time now: I disagree with alot of the posts that have been written on that board, and I do certainly not agree with any personal attacks on Rubel Shelly. Nor have I made any personal attacks on Shelly himself. I do object to some of the ideas that Shelly has been pushing on campus, but I do not have any personal grudge against him. My objections are not unique to Shelly; I disagree with certain other "leaders" on campus as well. Despite these disagreements, as I noted before, I did not ask for funds to be pulled - that is not my goal. Ideas cannot be fought with money, they can only be fought with better ideas.
"The problem I see Biblically is that you have deliberately sought out the support of those who are "concerned" about RC and called them to pull funding--your funding--from the school."
You're misrepresenting me again. My intention for posting there was to let people who were involved with the college to know what is happening at RC in regard to teaching, assemblies, and agenda. If various staff members of RC are pushing ideas that are offensive to some of its donors and parents of prospective students, don't they deserve to know that? Isn't the act of certain members of the administration accepting funds from donors while purposely not informing them of things they would object to deceptive? The donors and parents of prospective students do and should have influence over what happens at the college, shouldn't they? Donors should be able to voice their concern if the college is engaging in events and ideologies that are objectionable to them and their Christian faith. They cannot do that if the administration is keeping potentially objectionable hidden from them (such as, oh, the plagiarism issue).
One final thought on that issue: I am not telling people to stop coming to Rochester. On the contrary, if prospective students are strong in their beliefs, I encourage them to come to Rochester College and begin a movement for change on campus.
But, your anonymity "protects" your scholarship and corrupts the Biblical mandate to lovingly go to one's brother or sister face-to-face (or through a direct mailing like the Apostle Paul) if you have a problem with them personally or need to correct or rebuke wrong thinking.
"So, I would say the scope of your approach is not just divisive and mean-spirited, but it is SINFUL."
How is it sinful? I believe verses you say condemn me are Matthew 18:15-17:
"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector."
Incorrect. I do not have a personal vendetta against Rubel Shelly nor has he sinned against me. I don't even know him, to be honest. You are trying to turn this into a battle between Dr. Shelly and I - that's an inherently flawed argument. I am opposed to the Emergent movement as a whole, not one individual. That was the point of posting on the Madison Church of Christ Concerned Members board; I wanted an avenue to voice my thoughts on the Emergent movement. If the "Concerned Members" are more interested in insulting Shelly, then I will not be a part of that.
After all, if I were to go around meeting and discussing faults with every Christian I disagree with, I wouldn't have time to do anything else.
Unfortunately, what I see here and at the MCoC board time and time again are groundless accusations and sweeping generalizations and only THEN an attempt is made to prove what is said (and sometimes not even that effort is given). We have essentially been called "racist" and "ignorant" by various lackeys, yet no one seems to be able to back up those allegations with fact. I am grateful, though, that these people - insulting as they may be - are finally saying what they really feel because of their anonymity. Perhaps now issues can actually be solved.
"In all honesty, beyond Tacitus, I find very few
arguments that make logical sense."
Calvin, I will take you up on that, I challenge you to demonstrate any of my contentions to be unsound. If you do not understand, wouldn't it be more beneficial for you to ask for help?
"But, beyond that, I hear talk of truth (divorced from Christ)."
I am wondering how it is you figure the truth could ever be divorced from Christ. It sounds as if it is a part of this "Emergent Church" theology. Speaking of which, you suggested we talk about the Emerging Church here. I'm game, and I completely agree, it is an important discussion to have.
I will spend more time answering these questions later (after finals), but I want to address the "truth divorced from Christ" comment. What is meant by that is exactly how you defined it. I feel people speak about truth, but divorce it from Christ, making it "not truth."
If the problem is with the emergent Church movement, make a post about that. I think that might be an AWESOME discussion. But, to say the college is pushing Emergent theology is FAR from the truth. You might question their methodology of presentation, but they hardly endorsed it. They just showed it (mostly) for what it is. I think a lot of Emergent's flaws are right on the surface. But, I agree there are A LOT of problems with emergent thought. Problem is, not all emergent thinkers are alike (case in point, Brian McLaren, Laren F. Winner, Rob Bell, and Mark Driscoll--liberal to conservative spectrum). The more I talk about it, the more I think a post about emergent theology might be worthwhile, but you need to have studied up on it to articulate about it (not that you haven't, just saying that like all theologies, there are lots of twists and turns and no end to differences of opinion).
I will sit and think on some things said here and respond in a while. YHWH's peace.
Calvin,
I'm all for a discussion on the Emergent Church, and I think "The House of God" sessions are a good topic as well.
Tacitus
"...but I want to address the "truth divorced from Christ" comment. What is meant by that is exactly how you defined it."
But I didn't define it. It sounded ambiguous, so I asked how truth could be divorced from Christ.
"I feel people speak about truth, but divorce it from Christ, making it "not truth.""
I am still wondering, how can a person divorce the truth from Christ?
Sure, make a post about your thoughts on House of God and we'll discuss it.
(Though, I'm a bit disappointed there wasn't more diversity of opinion on the last one...those who opposed women in ministry didn't want to sit on that panel.) Let's talk about the Emergent Church. I think it might be interesting. Anyhow...I'll comment on the other stuff after finals...
As for the "truth divorced from Christ" I think we're just talking past one another. I'll put it like this, I hear people talk about truth--"This is the truth.." but then they speak the "truth" with venom in their words, no love. So, all this "truth" talk, in that sense, is divorced from Christ (who is love incarnate). So, that is what I mean. Truth cannot be divorced from God. It is impossible. Of course, this raises the question of "Just because someone speaks the truth without an ounce of love, does this make it any less the truth?" It's a strange dichotomy. Does this make more sense?
Calvin, thank you for clarifying.
But I wonder when you say:
"I hear people talk about truth--"This is the truth.." but then they speak the "truth" with venom in their words, no love."
Who has done this? And how do you know that their intentions were so wayward?
I for one, have experienced no such thing, and as to my knowledge, (of my own responses) have never used such venom as you speak of, nor do I recall any consistent poster on this blog doing so either. Whom do you speak of?
I was speaking more of the posters at Concerned Members, which Tacitus has made clear he/she does not agree with. I just felt there was a lot of angst against a person and speaking low of them without talking to them directly. I have seen just pure debate here, which is fine by me--even if we ultimately agree to disagree.
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